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Hey you guys real quick non-car related video. So I've got this: Outlet over here I Was attempting to put a couple plugs here. Uh, this wire runs under here and it comes into this outlet box right here. Question is: I've got my hot I've got a neutral and I've got a ground.
Can someone explain to me why? I have 45 volts between neutral and ground on these wires right here. See this is this is not good. see that one's hot. My hot wire is hot I've got current on ground and I have current on neutral I don't Uh yeah, look at that.
There's even current right here on on the ground wire. So I go hot to ground and it's given me like 70 volts. Maybe there's a ground in a neutral that are flipped somewhere or they've got a ground bonded to neutral somewhere. Let me know what you guys think.
I don't really know why I have weird voltages on wires that should not have voltage.
That metall boxes and wirehoses are so wired 😬
Why?? Rest of the world is out of plastic
Oh my God a lot of bad advice. 1 main panel must be neutral bonded to ground 2. sub panels neutral and ground must be separate.
Now it seems the ground at the main is not good enough.
It is easyer for me to fix it than to try and explain it.
Another thing, This likely is unrelated to your issue. The main panel straight from the meter is the only panel that should have a ground rod and be bonded. Anything downstream of the main panel is a sub panel and should NOT have a ground rod or be bonded
Your neutral has to be grounded. Looks like it isn't and has some potential on it. Or it could be the other way – your ground is loose somewhere and some stray voltage came up to it. That could be fatal, all your grounded devices could have the same potential on their metal parts. First test you should do is to get a test lightbulb, the best for this are those oldschool incandescent ones. Connect it between neutral and ground, it will either trip your GFCI if you have one or will just do nothing. Measure the voltage between hot and neutral plus hot and ground, with the bulb still connected. It should be the full mains voltage. Then connect the bulb between hot and the ground. It should light up brightly (or trip your GFCI). If not, your ground wire is loose. Then check between hot and neutral, if it won't light then your neutral is loose somewhere. You could also find a well grounded object around you (a rod sticking up from the ground would be perfect) and then check between all the wires and that ground. This way you'll find if the neutral is loose or is it the ground wire.
There are several possibilities.
1. you could have a loose wire on safety ground or it is floating (on both ends) and has ghost voltage compared to neu due to inductance from the other wires. This can be checked by powering down the circuit and checking OHMs between NEU and S/G. It should be very low, single digits unless the run is very long. If it is more than maybe 15 Ohms – or open – you have a fault.
You can also test this with a three prong Kline circuit tester – the little three light orange tester or the fancy dancy LCD model. Of course you would need jumper leads or wire in an outlet to use it here. I prefer using a meter because I am old school LOL.
2. I noticed two other wires going into the 4 way outlet box. This means the outlet is likely in line (daisy chained) with other circuits or outlets. Neutral is a "load bearing" ground. This means it has current flowing through it back to the panel from hot. If you have loads along the circuit in a daisy chain, the neutral will have a bias as compared to S/G. I have seen 50 volts all day long and it WILL pop you if you get between it and S/G. The funny thing is, even with a load, you will still see 120VAC (or thereabouts) between Hot and NEU even with this S/G bias.
This is a thing I DRILLED into our young techs coming out of school when I did training. One of the things we worked on was big motors, and it is common for a NEU to have such voltages on a circuit with a high amperage motor on it. Many times we would have to work on circuits live due to the nature of the equipment we worked on. It was not always possible to kill it. During training, I would set up a test circuit with a NEU fault to create voltage on the white wire, and invariably they would catch a jolt because school always taught that NEU is ground and therefore safe. NOPE – NOT always true!!!! as you see.
So now I am going back to my OJT teaching days
This is a good lesson in the difference between NEU and S/G. Neutral "ground" has a load on it, and therefore because of the resistance and inductance of the wire, a voltage drop along the circuit. (think series ladder resistors only the load is dynamic actual loads) Each "in use" plug represents a "node" part of the ladder circuit with the wire itself representing the actual resistors. So there will be a higher and higher voltage at each (loaded) junction — between NEU and S/G (when the NEU wire is under load) as you work your way away from the breaker panel.
S/G is a NON load bearing "ground" so the voltage should be zero all along the circuit unless there is a fault and current that should be going down NEU is actually going down S/G. Since it has no load on it, it should have no ladder resistor effect. which is why it is a "safety" ground. You have no guarantee that NEU is at "Earth" potential along a circuit due to a load. S/G is MUCH more likely to be at "Earth" because there is no load – hence the bias. (S/G is supposed to be at "Earth" along its entire run because of "no load")
This is not something I have ever seen taught properly in trade schools – That is, the actual difference between S/G and NEU and why there can be voltage on NEU – enough to get you a pretty good jolt!
Funny thing – I been doing this stuff for almost 40 years now, and I have been popped by different voltages enough I can tell you about what it is. One time i was adding a circuit in an office building and was not allowed to shut down the circuit because there were programmers and servers that could not be turned off on the circuit. SO I added my stuff and the last step was run to the live circuit and tie into the junction box. I get my rubber gardening gloves on and hook up the S/G, then the neutral, then the hot. I always connect in that order so the last wire hanging is the hot, so I do not get any unexpected hanging hots on the wires in case there is a fault. A hanging hot is where you connect the hot, and the voltage goes through a device and comes out on NEU as full 120VAC looking for a way home. You latch onto it and ZAP. right through the coffee maker some idiot plugged into your circuit before you finished!!!!! While i was trying to get the hot tied in, I was wrangling the wires in this very full box and unbeknownst to me the wire nut on NEU popped off. I had exactly the same situation you are showing here and I got hit with about 50 volts. My forearm had brushed the open NEU and the conduit . My helper asked if I got hit, and I was like, No – I got popped by NEU, felt like about 50 to 60 volts. NEUTRAL????? (he said) that can't happen, its not hot!!! Then I explained to him the whole thing i just explained above. He didn't believe me in that I could judge the voltage so he went and got a meter so I could prove it. 56 volts!!! I'll be dipped!!!!
So test NEU to S/G with the circuit off and if the horseshoe is a low number, its just a load on the NEU. could also be a loose wire nut, or a wire that partially slipped out of a wire nut – VERY common on NEU because people tend to cram a bunch of them under a too small wire nut, or even a loose screw on a terminal such as an outlet. If you see a red or big blue wire nut with like five 12 AWG wires shoved in it, have a look at that because one of the wires is probably slipped back from the connection. Also look out for outlets with doubled up wires under the screw lugs – a super nasty no-no!!!! Dog leg them!!!
If you do not know what you are doing. Hope you have a fire extinguisher. Fire insurance will not cover amateur electricians
What do you read hot to neutral? I'm thinking there's probably a ground not connected upstream. Neutral and ground should be bonded at the first point of disconnection, which should make N-G read 0, or thereabout. If ground is floating, it can capacitively couple enough to trick your meter's high impedence input.
Strong electrical background here…
That 45.5 vac means your neutral is NOT bonded to ground.
That is very bad. You need to call an electrician and have them fix that asap.
Explanations are purely academic at this point. Just get it fixed, then understand the details later.
Ghost voltages causing wonky readings. Pull a load on that circuit and test again. Should get different readings.
I would suspect this is most likely an induced voltage that the meter is picking up, make yourself a test light with a standard AC lamp, and then check the voltage again. If the bulb even lights up.
If the bulb lights up though….make friends with an electrician, before something you don't want to light up, does.
short the neutral to ground with a 5000ohm "ish" resistor if the voltage drops to almost 0 and does not burn up right away just connect everything as normal. Explaining it becomes complicated but you can search "electromagnetic coupling" and "transmission line effects". The problem is long runs and BX cable. Isolated ground receptacles will resolve this but installing them is in the scope of a qualified sparky like me.
You have a floating ground, and the ground wire is picking up Eddie currents which are inducing a weird voltage on the ground wire… if you were to hook up a light from the ground to either wire, it would not work… the induced voltage is caused by the magnetic field that is surrounding the hot and neutral wires and since all 3 wires are ran together, the magnetic field will induce voltage on the ground if its not properly grounded on the supply end
Try following circuit all the way back to the panel. Open all J boxes to see what is connected to what. I never run a branch circuit through other receptacles. Meaning, Always pigtail with wire nuts at each box. That way you only have 3 wires going to each duplex receptacle. Also. Is there any possibility anything got wet or water into it? Hope this helps.
stop sticking the knife in the toaster….
You think it is safe with the outlet switch off.
but you proved it is not.
Do you have two services on this building?
I would call a sparky if I was you, last thing you need is your shop burning down due to shonky wiring throughout your shop.
Time to tear it all out and get fresh wiring. It's just not worth it to fix all of the problems that wiring has
You should check where the neutral buss goes to ground for proper connection and make sure that no neutral wires are connected to the ground buss. Ideally you should have 110/120 Volts from positive to neutral, and 110/120 Volts from positive to ground. The ground by itself should never show open circuit Voltage.
Hey Ray! You have an outlet somewhere in your building that is cross feeding hot to neutral. Unplug all of your outlets and check the voltage. The voltage on your test leads should go away. To find the outlet plug one device in one outlet and check your test leads when you see that voltage comeback, you have found the offending outlet.
Neutral wire got cut in pole
In some cases Ray, The ground is the metal jacket covering the wire, The green wire may have been used as a second circuit. To say that you have 2 circuits in one box.
Disconnect all loads at outlet and repeat test.
Well too me the whole wiring in that place looked like a clusterfuck including the panels. You want that place safe? I would get a qualified commercial electrician in there asap.
Open natural
feedback on neutral.
Ray the Neutral is made for the returning voltage with AC current there is always a little bit of returning voltage it is supposed to return unused electric to the panel box. Older houses that had 3 wire 240 volt circuits if you touched them with wet hands you would get a little shock because the neutral was tied to the neutral.
You have a floating neutral. Which means your neutral and ground are not bonded correctly. Work your way back to the panel from the outlets. Check all of your neutral and ground screw in your panel. Check your breakers as a PM.
I hate when that happens 🤪
Check the tightness of your neutral wire in the circuit breaker panel. And verify your earth ground is good. Safety first remove all power from your breaker panel before opening.
Could some of your outlets be wired backwards. Try using one of those plug in testers to check this….Jim
I once went crazy tracing down a ghost voltage on a red wire just to discover the wire I was measuring was completely disconnected. Purely an induced voltage from the other wires in the cable.
check the box from where the cable feeds from.
Disconnect all and start over. That is the nice thing about working with wires run in conduit. Try tracing down the problem in a house.
It's real simple, put the tools down, call in a professional licensed Electrician and let them figure it out while wiring up your shop correctly.
Check your panel. I have seen Ground wired to Neutral in the panel before.
Just an observation: When you touched the hot with your tester the red light came on. When you touched the ground the red light came on. When you touched the neutral the green light came on.
Loose neutral
Get an electrician Ray.
You are missing both neutral and ground. Try hot to building steel. If you have correct voltage at the last receptacle, then I would start investigating that box.
Hey Ray, I'm not an electrician. In my humble opinion is not good. There seems to be good advice in the comments. Please be careful.
Never trust those induction testers. You may only have one hot wire but the stick tester might show everything hot. Look in the other box.
I'm not an electician, but backfeed was my first thought. If you have 110v between hot and neutral and 110v between hot and ground, I wouldn't worry about it.
1. Safety first. 2. Check your electrical panel. Make sure all neutral and all ground wire connections are tight (at the panel). 3. Check the ground and neutral at the box you fed your wiring from. That should help localize the problem. 4. Visually inspect the wiring between the last good box (where the voltage between neutral and ground is 0V) and the issue box. Could be a damaged or partially damaged wire.
Ground and neutral should be bonded at the main panel and at the pole, but not anywhere else. There should also be at least 1 good ground rod connected to the main panel with a heavy enough copper wire. Make sure the ground rod is not loose in the ground.
You should go through the shop and test every receptacle and check every junction box for improper connections.
Sorry for that undesirable recommendation, but what you see there could indicate serious issues in your shop.
Tip: a simple receptacle tester that plugs directly in could save you a lot of time.
Take your time starting at where those wires go to the next box. Open it up, and check to see if any wires are inadvertently swapped then keep going backwards. It could also be that when you did the demolition, something might have been hit and you have a pinch that's causing the pipe to become a source of grounding. The fact that you have odd voltages is definitely a sign that you have three phase wiring there at the building and you need to make sure that there's nothing inadvertently pinched between points. Just take your time. Go from box to box. You'll probably find the problem very quickly.
Unplug everything on the circuit. Sound like a device isnt behaving.
Check your grounding electro conductor, that’s the conductor that goes to the main bonding jumper to the building steel or main copper water pipe. Check grounding clamps.
That is an ugly installation. No anti short bushing in MC. Not using MC connectors, you dont have a green ground/bonding screw in the 4S box. At the second box, I see Romex. Romex is not allowed where it is subject to accidental abuse, it needs to be MC cable or conduit. Rip it all out, and start over.
As far as grounding is concerned – at the main panel, all the ground wires and all neutral wires go to the same bus bar. At all sub panels they go to separate bus bars. The grounding bus bar is connected directly to the metal panel (with machine screws), it is also connected with a correct size ground wire (look up the size in the NEC, is depend on the amperage of the sub panel) – all the way back to the main panel. The neutral bus bar is 'isolated' in a sub panel. It will get screwed down with plastic insulating mount. They need to be isolated from each other because of impedance.
I put my bet on induction. Your ground is disconnected! A wire can be disconnected at both ends and still light up the detector if it runs in parallel with hot wire for long enough due to induction. Based on the fact that lights are on just fine and you are not complaining being zapped I guess that voltage you see has little to no "power" and will drop to 0V if you try to pull some amps. Still it is not right. Ground should never lit the detector. Start from easy steps and check your ground at various points of the circuit. Perhaps you will find where the detector stops being lit. That would give some idea where ground is disconnected. I'm guessing here perhaps it is possible to see 45V to neutral and 70V to hot due to fact that induced AC on ground wire has it's phase shifted? As others pointed out it could be other things too or even more than one fault. Be careful.
Simple,neutrals can carry current!You are detecting voltage,look for loose neutral,someone probly used the back stab outlets
Floating ground somewhere. Start at the end and work back or source and move forward. Something is not connected correctly.
I think that's the time to call an electrician
Are you replacing an outlet that used to exist, or adding outlets where you found those wires? Open the other box and make certain what is tied together. There's a variety of switching or wiring modes that might cause this and somebody may have used green as non-standard conductor. Black to white is 120ish? Does Black to the metal box also show 120ish?
Neutral is loose in the prior box.
I'll try to be brief. Don't use ground to check for voltage. Anything plugged in, ballasted lights, electric heaters, incandescent light bulbs pass voltage back to the neutral. What your seeing is most likely voltage on the neutral, the ground is becoming your neutral. When your checking for voltage, it's more than hot, neutral, ground. Your checking for voltage difference between wires. Something is sending voltage more than likely to the neutral, while the ground has no voltage so you get a reading on your meter. Unplug everything on that circuit, then test. Then start disconnecting boxes one at a time, or a few boxes in series at a time. That may show you some other issue going on. There are also GFCI testers that can show you if a neutral/ground is reversed even though you don't have a GFCI wired in.
We all love you Ray, hire a commercial electrician you trust and have him go through the entire shop and correct all issues found. Chances are with this issue found there are several others (sadly) But with rentals/ Leases the property owner is either complacent or ignorant of what the property condition is. Regardless you and your family's safety are in jeopardy without a through inspection.
Ray, please get an electrician to do the wiring sounds like you got a floating ground or worse a floating neutral problem. I saw your panel in your videos get that death box outta there please. If you have the funds get an electrician to rip it all out and start fresh.
you have a bad ground connection somewhere in the circuit.
Get a electric in cus its seems as one too many "just do this-diy idiots" have done thier magic on the place previously.
Inductive/capacitive voltage, it happens in longer runs of power wires when they are close to each other. Have the same thing in our barn, there's probably not enough amperage behind it to even light a bulb. Sometimes called a ghost voltage.
As others have said it is undoubtedly a loose neutral in the circuit. If the wires are back stabbed in the outlets before this box I would start there by using the screw terminal connections
I could understand it if you lived in California. 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸%
I have no idea. But you need to get some professional wiring done.
There is damaged wiring somewhere along that circuit. Look for a kink in the BX armored cable or a loose or overtightened cable clamp. If the BX is clamped with a Romex clamp it will crush the sheathing and cause the partial short and split voltages.
Loose neutral at the outlet feeding it.
Neutral. Something about load balancing. You need an electrician.. that place is butchered electrically speaking
I don't touch ANYTHING over 12v !!
Is there a 240v to 120v transformer? on secondary the neutral white should be bonded to ground.
Get an electrician. This is not safe!
Not wired right in other box
You need to get an outlet tester and start running your outlets one at a time. That will narrow down your problems
Sorry, the phenomenon is called AC Inductance 😉
Considering you demolished the original portion of the building to get more working space, I would have an electrician come in and check the wiring and make sure it wasn't just scabbed in. Probably more than one dead circuit floating around in the building and one could be connected to the wrong wire somewhere.
This is probably the reason this wire was rolled up and disconnected in the rafters 😂. Good news nothing in the building is grounded. Bad news nothing is grounded 😂😂😂😂
This requires the KISS method, trace the source back to the breaker. Hot to neutral and hot to ground. Where it falls down is the issue. Something is loose or has failed. From what I have seen unless your confident everything else in that shops electrical is correct and not done sketchy then proceed, otherwise get a trusted electrician to go through it all. You have seen the mayhem unqualified individuals have reeked on vehicles, building electrical is parallel. Be safe Ray.👊
Could be an open neutral somewhere and power is always trying to find ground. Giving a light somewhere power. It goes from positive to the neutral then can't get back to panel so when you connect the meter neural to ground it completes the circuit.
If you plan on staying in this shop long term have your shop rewired by a professional. including a new panel box that can be expanded to accept more circuit breakers for new plugs or lights. If this is a temporary shop and you don't plan on staying just don't install any new plugs or switches. Leave it be.
thats a really bad ground loop. I would unplug everything you can and see if it is still there. simply flipping off breakers likely will not find it. if it is, then you have either a hot wire that is slightly damaged some place or you have a light/outlet some place that is internally leaking the power to ground.
I'm an electrician. Test voltage at the receptacle upstream that you show in the video. If you have 120v hot to neutral and 120v hot to ground wire then voltage is ok at that point. Open that box and you should find either loose wiring or incorrect wiring connections. The odd voltage readings are due to an open neutral and ground in the circuit.
I wouldn't plug anything I care about in before an electrician has a look.
Yea with out being there and being able to look at a few things I couldn't give u a definite answer. Get a buddy that is licensed to come take a look for u . Might want to have someone look at that soon . Especially with all the loads you've added since occupying the space . To be safe RREEE
Loose wire
Another thought is that the Ground isn't connected to anything and is simply showing leakage due to inductance. That Ground and the Neutral both need to be fed all the way through to the meter base bond via the main circuit breaker panel. It's most likely an open ground or maybe neutral depending on what you find in that quad outlet box with the white romex wire going to it. All wiring in that shop needs to be either EMT Conduit or Metal Case like the wire at the box you have open and are getting weird readings from.
Because you have something else plugged into that circuit. Unplug and turn off anything else that's on that circuit, your getting feed back on the N.
Unplug all devices on that circuit then check your circuit again.
The prior owner probably had a unlicensed electrician who hooked up something wrong. Open up the box with the plugs and investigate. Or hire a electrician that knows how to wire up electricity 🤔.
You have a floating neutral…..
Open the other box that one is fed from and check the connections. There is a ground bond fault allowing leakage. Ground should be bonded to neutral at the meter base or perhaps the main panel. It's an open circuit more or less which is why you are seeing voltage between neutral and ground! Be careful not to get lit up! The problem should be obvious aka mechanical so don't be afraid to kill power at the panel to perform repairs… It's a simple problem. GodSpeed bro!
Ray, there is no magic. If you can’t tell what has gone on in that shop, you likely have had a genius working his magic unpermitted. As an owner operator and possibly future employer hire an electrician who is licensed and insured. In the end you’ll spend a bit more but you’ll get rid of any unpermitted work and possibly save someone’s life. That someone might even be a loved one. I love your videos! Good luck my friend.
Backfeeding somewhere.
When you first moved in you showed us the the rats nest open panels, All kinds of dangerous wiring methods could be seen in the background. Nobody especially your kids should be in that place until it has been gone over by a qualified electrician and inspected for compliance. If that circuit is faulted and ungrounded, touching the conduit/box/device, while standing in the puddle under the roof leak could be like throwing a toaster in a bathtub. For liability, you need the inspection/compliance certificate to be insured. You have a lot to lose. As Jack says,"It will be money well spent."
Somewhere down stream, a ground wire is touching the neutral wire or is being used as a neutral wire.
There should be a voltage differential between the green wire and a true ground like the metal building or the white wire and true ground. That will indicate which line has leakage. You should also check the metal box upstream to see if it has a voltage difference with ground.
I've seen that before had to run a new home run to a furnace because hot was leaking electrons to neutral then to ground hence burning up control boards motors transformers problem solved but as stated you also could have a ground and or neutral issue easy way to check go from ground to the shell of the building I've been to a building that there is ghost 180 volts running through the gas line I walked off that service call shut the pack unit down left
I would trace that power feed back to panel and make sure the green wire is tied to the ground buss bar. There should never be a voltage Between neutral and green safety ground. if you aren’t sure have an electrician look at everything in your shop.
Call a local Licensed Electrician. Don’t try and save money, when I could take your life!
check the other outlet the plug could be bad
First check the main power coming in. Then trace it back to the main panel one junction at a time. If still not able to determine, disconnect one junction at a time and trace it back to the main panel. Last time I had this issue it was the power coming into my house from the street. The power company dug a deep hole to replace the main line.