In this video I have a look at a Kia Sedona for another shop that came in with cam timing codes. P0011 indicates that the rear bank timing is falling behind. Let's see if the computer is telling us the truth.
-Enjoy!
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Time, Good day, Start folks. And today we're not starting with a Chevrolet starting with a Kia And what year is this thing? See's a ' 09, Sedona big 33 or 38 or something in it and this one is sent to us from another Shop with a big old list here. Uh, evidently they're having some problems with the engine light on the 09. Sedona with a 38 has lots of codes in it.

a P1, a 12, a 16, a 26. So those are all cam timing codes. 172 for Anrich at 300 for misfire. They sent me a whole list of all their scans of just page after page after page of just Codes it has.

We got on here. Lean on both. Banks I mean just tons of stuff. So anyhow, we're not going to look too much into that.

Uh, all we know is that the Money light is on Starts runs. It's got 130k on it and they want the engine light fixed so we're going to pull it inside here. We'll get our door opening and we'll see what codes are in it currently. Hopefully I mean it sounds like they've been clearing them and then the codes just, uh, come right back so we'll see what portion of the drive cycles running what codes are in it currently and see if we can't fix them.

Get out of there. we're just going to jump right into just generic OBD2 data cuz we want to see what portion of the drive cycle is done and uh, you know what codes are in it compared to you know what? they left me on their list here. So I Imagine the drive Cycle's not done and it's not. So we've got three monitors that are incomplete and three codes that are in the vehicle currently.

so let's just see what they are. It's always a good idea to check. Uh, you know, to see if uh, drive cycles done here. So we've got a 16 and a 12, so that's what we're concerned with.

The random misfire is likely being caused by these problems. Yeah, it's got old permanent codes for running lean post Catal fuel trim to lean. but these are ones we're going to look at. the P2 and 16 cam correlation over that doesn't sound too good correlation Bank One Sensor one So uh, it doesn't sound too good.

Usually if there's you know mechanical failure, you know, stretch in a chain. we use that term loosely. Usually the timing falls behind, you know becomes over. Uh, they did leave me a list of parts I replaced That includes but not limited to: new plugs, new coils in the back, new crank sensor, new intake and exhaust Vbt solenoids uh from Kia So those are the parts they've changed.

popped into some OEM data. Oh, there we go. I Was going to say we're going to look for some uh, hopefully that it had some camshaft position pids so we can see actual versus desire. This is exactly what we have.

so it appears that probably the intake cam I didn't see one for exhaust. We're going to keep going. Maybe the intake cam is the only one that has variable valve timing. So I'm just going to kind of scan through here and it appears that that it is.

So let's uh, get a live data pit here. um. engine RPM is always a good one to pick and let's go. Oops! H the wipers here.
let me see if I give it the reach. start it up. Okay, well here's your problem lady. Uh, so this is what I don't know why our data Pit's not live here.

Oh okay, there it is. Just run a little behind. um. intake cam actual position bank one is behind 25.

um I don't know how I accurate the data pits are, but this is what the Pcm's seeing and that's the code that it has in it, right? Let uh, let's see Advanced system performance timing over. So the P 0012 bank one is falling behind and that's what it's seeing. So I think this is probably going to be a pretty uh cut and dry case. I'm assuming I think the best thing for us to do now to get out of here.

Pop the hood look. Got some stuff under here. Say hello to the lovely Miss though. what's up Miss though come much.

What's up Staining some wood? huh? Staining some paint sticks? Yeah. who there she is? Uh, let's find out which one is. Oh this is? all bolted I Find out where Bank One is? Um, you know things that could be going on here is a bad, you know. BB BT Actuator So the solenoid that they said they replaced said they did both of them.

So I'm assuming there's only two or we could literally have the cam timing that's off. which is what I suspect you know for whatever reason. So let me get this off start to identify some components here. All right.

I See both. Uh VVT Actuators are new so they sit down here in the end of the head. Uh, this rear Bank must be bank one. So typically looking at a V configuration engine, whichever one has the cylinder that is further ahead of the other is typically bank one.

I Think that's a sometimes but not always case but 90% of the time type thing. Uh, so I'm going to assume this is Bank one. We look it up for sure. Uh, it's a chain drive engine.

Uh, so there's that. You know we don't have any circuit codes for the Vbt solenoid. looks like real piss pot to get to, but they are both new as indicated. and then the cam sensor I don't know where that lives.

Oh okay, so maybe this is it. So there's one up here on top on the intake cam on Bank two. and then yep, the one back here is brand new and they did say that was a key apart. So I'm thinking just from scan tool data, we can kind of confirm this one.

I mean we can hook the hook the scan tool to or hook the scope to it. get the cam crank waveform compared to a known good. but I assume we're going to see it that 25 off or at least uh, falling behind uh H All right, well let's going of keep going here. but I think we're kind of wasting our time at this point I think ultimately what's going to have to happen is a cover is going to have to come off this engine.

So I went online folks uh to a waveform Exchange program. uh, group that I belong to on the Facebook and somebody had a 2008 Sedona 38 cam crank waveform now Hyundai Kia is usually pretty good about putting this stuff in service data which they did, but it's a pretty crappy picture and it's really hard to tell. Um, usually they show you know scope captures but I think we can learn a lot from this. So I'm just going to zoom in on a section here so we have, uh, let me just turn off Channel C here because we don't really need that and I'll read this Fell's notes to you so we can see our our two cams here.
Uh, Channel a has got labeled as Bank two so it's going to be the front cam. Uh, Channel B is the rear cam but I guess Most importantly, we can see the two Uh cam patterns overlay on themselves and then we can see it's A. it's a 58 to crank signal minus 2 teeth. Oops let me redo this here and we can see how it lines up in reference to the U open tooth here on the on the crank signal.

Um so uh down here is our our open tooth on the crank signal. We can kind of see how that lines up with this portion of the cam. So I think probably the easiest thing. I we can do a cam crank correlation on this.

We can use our Pico scope here and get the same waveform that this fella obtained. uh, that shared I'm certain that we're going to see that the rear bank is off just like scan data shows. Uh, it's a a little bit of a waste of time. You know the solenoids are new.

They have the same problem. So I doubt that we have a stuck solenoid on the same bank. Um, what we can do is unplug that rear solenoid just to make sure that electronically it's not turned on and you know, allowing oil control or oil pressure to go to. uh uh, you know the cam gear and and it now I don't know and I couldn't find in service data is if we apply power to the solenoid, does it Advance or the cam shaft that I'm not sure it's you know variable but it doesn't tell me to what degree.

Um, that's why they call it a Cvvt instead of a just a VVT you know it's a pulsewidth modulator. Duty signal going to the solenoid to I don't want to say infinitely change it but to to change the cam timing within a given range I would be uh, hesitant to apply power to that with it running because if we are already at 25 behind and all of a sudden we move it behind more and the Pistons touch the valves. Well now we've got a big problem so we're not going to do that. Uh, the scan tool will not actuate the solenoids with a code that's in it.

Um, but it's all making sense you know with the lean codes. Uh, a long long time ago Ian and I did a video on a Hyundai where the cam shaft bearing went bad and actually the cam twisted. Uh so it threw the timing off and it was making One Bank Uh, run lean and One Bank Run Rich because it screws up the volumetric efficiency of the engine. so the mass air flow was goofed up because of the amount of air going in and what? The bank that the timing was on was running lean and the bank the time it was off was running rich and it's just because of of how it works.
So um I'll find out where these uh, where these wires go will at least get tapped into it and uh, you know it's kind of very ify. then I can call the shop and tell them hey, you know, covers got to come off. It's either you know, in the cam gear, in the trigger wheel assembly, or in the actual physical. uh, you know, mechanical timing of the engine but without tearing the cover off.

This is the best we can do. Going reach down here with a pick and we're going to unplug this solenoid. We'd hate to be uh, wrong because it's you know, has a power and a ground Supply to it full time. If that was the case.

I I would assume it would set a circuit code, but let's not. assume let's grab the scan tool, start it up, and see, make sure that bank is still off contact back in the engine. We should have another. I Assume we're going to have a circuit code for that solenoid now, but we're just going to pop into live data and we'll get back down to that intake cam.

Oh this is interesting. Shows it at zero now. well let me plug that sucker back in. I Did not expect to see that.

Can't get it fo' back in here. Kind of a pisser to get to I plugged it in, it's still at zero. Let me uh re oh no, there it goes. so that's interesting.

Minus 25 let me let me take and unplug it here. So I just unplugged it. Maybe it just took it a while to read. Now it's at zero.

but see I don't know I don't know if once it sets a code, it quits reading that data. you know I'm not real sure. um sometimes car do some cars will do some funky things. So yeah we have our intake.

Well I know the glare is there but uh, p76 so a new code so it can see that circuit cuz it sets a circuit low code unplugged which is to be expected. so this is kind of interesting for the heck of it. I unpluged Bank two and you know this is running within like a you know, a half a degree where it wants to be. and when I unplug it, everything just goes to zero and it.

and then when I plug it in, it starts. you know, kind of reading live again I would assume if we plug this in and this cam timing actually changed 25, we would have heard a change in the engine. I'm more assuming that once it sets a circuit code, it's quit. It quits looking at actual live data.

Uh, the only way to prove that is to actually watch the cam signal on a scope. Uh, because I just can't fathom that when we plug this in, it changes 25 degrees and we don't hear a bit of a change in the engine. I'm going to plug it back in again. We're going to listen ready now.

Nothing's happening now. but oh, there it goes. So it just went to negative. You know, 25 When we first plugged it in, you know, heard just like a little hiccup.

But if you're changing cam timing 25, this thing's really going to I would assume it's going to sound a little different. We hear something I don't know. Let's uh. let's get on this.
CA Crank signal Pulled the cover off our connector here. Found the pins. Uh, just looking at a wiring diagram here. So I'm tapped into the Uh crank sensor high and then both cam signals and I've got them up here on our scope and I've got them labeled.

you know, crank sensor High Bank One Bank 2 Cam testing at the PCM So now we'll go in here and start this thing up. We'll capture some data. Got it moved around so we can see it a little better. Let this run for a second.

Just going to pause that there and shut it off. So I've zoomed in on a section here for us that has Uh 720 on the screen. So here's you know, a crank signal. There's 360 and here is 720.

Our green Trace is bank one. so that's the rear Cam and that's the one that we suspect is falling behind and we can see. It is because you can see this cam pattern is shifted to the right and easiest thing on scope remember is Right. So any any pattern that is you know to the right from your trigger is is falling behind.

You know this. This signal got written before that one. You know the way the data comes in. Um, so we can clearly see that that signal is is behind here.

We can throw up a phase ruler on here. We'll bring it from here. Let's see. Oops, Get this thing to work here.

We'll bring this across. We'll just set up 720 uh on the screen here. Then we can grab Gra another ruler. We can just see the difference between these cams.

We can just mark this spot here and then we can mark this spot here and see how much behind it is. And we can see here. From cam to cam they're about 14 difference or 15 difference between you know, front Cam and rear. Cam And um, you guys remember that last uh waveform.

We looked at the known good they were. they were right on top of each other. So let me let this load up. We'll have a look at that one.

Here's our known good waveform and we'll just zoom right in on these cams. No sense in really looking at them too close. Easiest thing to do is overlap them. I Mean it's you know, within you know, a degree or two? Uh, certainly not 15 off.

but you can see how they overlap. Okay, and then we'll go look at our waveform that we have stored. We get rid of all these uh, phase rulers and all that business we'll take do the same thing, go to overlap it and we can clearly see the green traces is falling behind. all right now.

We just captured this with everything plugged in and what we were kind of suspect of get rid of our Channel labels down here was when we unplugged our data on scan tool changed. So what we want to know is we're going to unplug that solinoid. We're going to capture the same waveform we just did and see where it is. Uh, despite what scan data was saying I Suspect that once we set a circuit code, scan data quits reading that data pit, that would be my guess.
Uh, not uncommon. So there's that unplugged, we'll SE uh this down here. we'll get our scope running again here. Oops.

Oh, I tripped over the cord so that one unplugs. So I just got to reset the value on it. Okay, let's go ahead and start it up. capture the data again and have a look and see if that remains.

You know that 15 from Cam to cam uh being different. So we'll just start it up. sit here and run for a second. The space Bar will pause it, We'll shut this car back off and then we'll have a look and see.

I Don't suspect we're going to see any change personally. Uh, because I don't suspect that there's any any circuit problems. Let's see here, we're just going to take and zoom in on a section here and then we'll do exactly what we did before. We'll just overlay and have just a kind of a a quick look here and we can see that the green Trace is still is still falling behind.

Um, what we could do is look at our known good, see where our bank 2 cam you know Falls in reference to the crank Mark just to just to make sure. But but it's pretty obvious to me looking at this with the solenoid plugged in with the solenoid unplugged that that bank is falling behind in timing. Um, you know, like I say the only thing we can do now or the other shop can do is pull the cover and have a look. Does it have a broken guide? Is the cam phaser itself stuck? You know, on the end of the Uh cam gear has a trigger wheel moved? You know there? Those Those are questions you can't answer until you know you're in there.

Uh, somebody would argue with that and say well, you can do an in cylinder pressure transducer test and see if the mechanical timing has actually moved or if the trigger wheel has moved. However, doing an in-cylinder test when all your coils are under the intake is almost impossible. I'm not smart enough to read uh intake pulses to be able to tell you you know what color underwear you're wearing. There are some guys that can at this point I would say the cover has to come off the mechanic IAL Timing is off on this engine, so hopefully this makes sense to you guys.

You know going at it with the scope is just taking it that one little extra step so we can actually physically see like yes, the cam on bank one is falling behind like the code says and like scan data showed. And then we're also able to, you know, unplug that solenoid. which was a little indecisive just looking at scan data. but like I say often times, looking in scan data when you unplug a component, you know something like this.

you know we unplug that solenoid. Now all of a sudden it looks like it's fixed. Uh, if you will, you know our cam timing goes from, you know-, 25 on the scan tool to zero and you're like, oh well, it's got to be something in that solenoid. Unplugged it.

Now it's you know. Miraculously fixed. But we can see that it appears that data pit just went dead and I assume it's because of the circuit code that's set. and if we looked in code set criteria, sometimes you'll find that information, sometimes you won't, But we could clearly see solenoid plugged in.
solenoid unplugged. Nothing actually physically changed. Uh, with the cam shaft, it still stayed broken. It still was falling behind.

You know, like I say difference of 15 from cam to cam? Uh, so that's that's about it. I mean there's nothing more you could do. Like I said, you could really beat this thing to death and do in cylinder test, intake pulse testing. Or you just pull the cover off and it's going to be broke.

Um, there's going to be that very rare instance where you know the cam trigger has moved on the camera or something. You know, super super weird like that. Uh, but I doubt we got anything weird going on. So I'm just going to call the other shop.

they'll take it back and you know I don't know if they'll you know, put a motor in it or if they'll pull the cover and see what happened. You know it's pretty quiet. You don't hear chain noise on that side of the engine, so that's you know. Kind of bizarre, but like I say in the beginning.

Typically when there is something wrong mechanically, the cam always falls behind. You know, because it's clockwise rotation. You know if the tooth's going to skip or if there's a guidance missing. You know that cam is always always falling behind.

as chains wear the pins wearing the chains, the cam falls behind. If you get a car in that has an over Advanced cam shaft usually that's caused by these. Somebody's been in there meddling with things they all not be meddling in and physically move the cam ahead or there's a problem with the phaser. If the phaser has the ability to advance the cam shaft, you know there could be issues there.

So uh, that's it. Nothing more to do. We've gone further than we should. so when of you guys go farther than you should than that? Comment section Questions: Comments: The Ins: the Facebook You know where to find us and just remember viewers.

If I can do it, you can do it. Thanks for watching.

96 thoughts on “This kia is running out of time!”
  1. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars J'sBluSmokeBBQ says:

    So shops send you their problems that they can't figure out and you send it back for them to fix?? Don't understand

  2. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars Duane Donaldson says:

    Your scan data showed 25* and your waveform showed only 15*, You did drag down a CMP wave over the CKP wave and I was waiting for you to possibly show 10* of chain stretch?? Thanks for the DIAG & the known good, as always, much appreciated.

  3. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars Pepaws Postings says:

    One word i can think of for your work and experience.
    AMAZING!!

  4. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars Eric Vogel says:

    Another master moment!

  5. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars BILL UPSTATE NY says:

    🗽🇺🇸💡👌

  6. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars David Bachtel says:

    I will smoke a shoulder, you, Ray, A-Rod…. Scotty, if you want him?
    Just imagine the gathering.

  7. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars MRrwmac says:

    Eric, Thanks for the insight! What about closure? How am I supposed to sleep at night not knowing if it actually fixed it. I mean I trust you more than any mechanic I ever knew but at least tell us? We trust your honesty!

  8. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars Chi Chu says:

    If you ever going to be buying a minivan.Only buying a Toyota.Stay aways from Honda because of their weak transmission.Chrysler and Hyundai are always have both engines and transmissions always have problems.When the minivan are getting old around 80 to 100 thousand miles and up..

  9. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars Chi Chu says:

    Kia,Hyundai 😂cars engine parts are craps.When the engine is getting old it could catch fire or your automatic transmission engine parts are totally starting to by destroying itself.

  10. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars David Dobson says:

    Eric, reading exhaust data is my specialty. That why I wear black underwear 😮

  11. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars al r says:

    Phasers

  12. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars Jimmy Foster says:

    You have to be careful what you fix, you might have that customer for ever. But you can bet he won’t go back to the dealer.

  13. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars Ron Wade says:

    Here in Flagstaff, Aridzona we are about 30 miles from, Sedona and the Oak Creek area. Named after the Wife of a local Dutch married couple, Sedona Schnebly, was the wife of Theodore Schnebly, one of many white settlers. Born in Missouri, Sedona was born into the Miller family, Sedona is one of many relatives I have in the ground around me here in northern AZ. Sedona is worth the trip!

  14. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars Murkadelic says:

    As a Kia technician, we seem them all the time. The 3.8 in the Cadenza had a recall for the timing chain guides and tensioners. Same engine in the other v6 applicable cars, but only the Cadenza got the recall.
    Granted the rest of the fleet has this happen well out of warranty. Cadenza chains were popping from the truck 😅

  15. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars J Man says:

    Man they ran that kia to the ground. Only 133k damn

  16. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars Robert Rossi says:

    Anybody know why Eric o stopped using torx sticks to put on lug nuts?

  17. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars Joe Mehere says:

    I always enjoy your videos and wear my "South Main Auto Repair" swag with pride. Thanks for this and all your videos. Be well!

  18. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars Frankie DaFixer says:

    Smart Man!!

  19. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars michael sorrentino says:

    great job

  20. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars justin weaver says:

    It's a Kia, it had a motor or needs one… Not much in between

  21. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars Manny SUAREZ says:

    Just too in a 2012 optima with a gdi engine fail burned all the oil till it locked up got a new engine installed with the recall warranty unbelievable for a 67k engine to fail with royal purple changes every 6 moths

  22. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars Aku2Dimensional says:

    I don't know what the color of my undergarments are but they were white when I bought them.

  23. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars Ed Chenal says:

    Your experience pays off. Keep up the good teaching sessions.

  24. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars jack handy says:

    algo….

  25. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars El says:

    Great video and explanation of your diagnosis as usual guys!

  26. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars S/MEDiumBoreADV says:

    Dowel pin in the camshafts break on these and Hyundais. Just a tip of the day

  27. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars Jim Weimer says:

    Another one with timinf out of wack that another shop did tuneup and a cam solenoid and of course it didn't fix it. That shop I would avoid. When the gm 2.2 first started to go this, we change a solenoid and cam sensor before we learned our lesson to dig deep. But that was the beginning the issues with these cars with cam phasers and vvt. Do one wrong you learn . Apparently that other shop hasn't figured it out.
    You go south main

  28. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars Davey T says:

    So did they just leave the solenoid unplugged?

  29. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars it1988a says:

    KIA stands for Killed in Action

  30. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars boostedmaniac says:

    I was gonna say is that longitudinal mounted when it had the engine cover? Nope.

  31. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars Mark Eckelkamp says:

    Proof is in the pudding. Fantastic video Eric O.

  32. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars AngeloDc4 says:

    Those engines are known for sucking the cam pin connected onto the phaser into the cam itself causing the phaser to spin on camshaft

  33. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars Louis Harris says:

    Great Video mister "O"

  34. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars ALLTRADES says:

    What's the scan tool you are using in your videos?

  35. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars Rich Long says:

    Hopefully your making the big bucks 🤘

  36. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars erg0centric says:

    If I can do it, you can do it.

    Yes, maybe, if I buy a $3k scan tool and subscribe to a service. 😥

  37. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars andy de la rue says:

    Sad too that Kia has made hundreds of thousands of cars and this fault probably has raised its head many times, but will they let the public know? Thanks Eric for you most enlightening and entertaining work.👍

  38. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars Jeremy Pilot says:

    I bet it's either bad cam phasers or a timing chain it is my understanding Hyundai had a problem with them in the 2006-2011 model year 3.3 and 3.8 Lamba V6s great engine with that exception.

  39. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars Kirk Larson says:

    It's a KIA…they're pretty much totaled when the ash tray if full.

  40. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars Wazza Zone says:

    Thanks Eric O

  41. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars Fixxer Automotive says:

    I don't know about the 6cyl, but i have seen the 4cyl shear off cam phaser dowel pins due to under torqued phaser bolts from the factory on some newer kia models

  42. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars MJM’s Workshop says:

    Other shop is watching this taking notes.

  43. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars Piedmont Stairlifts says:

    I noticed Mrs. O's shop coat was awful white and was missing the South Main Auto Shield on the back. Great Video Eric!

  44. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars Tony says:

    Get rid of all that bull and go ev

  45. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars jorge fernandez says:

    What you tested made sense and now you have to start taking parts off. Nice Job!

  46. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars Daniel Valdez says:

    It's amazing to see you're getting 100k+ views on your vids just a few hours after posting, that's more than the whole population of Steuben County, Your content and editing keeps getting bettter and better, keep it up Eric, 1M subs are around the corner big milestone ahead. Kudos!

  47. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars Mark Ferraro says:

    Great job EO thanks

  48. Avataaar/Circle Created with python_avatars Jon Shearer says:

    Eric; Are there 'ranges' in torque settings for oil drain plugs in different vehicles or do you use a standard setting for all?